M.......... ([info]mike72486) wrote in [info]weirdjews2,
2005-03-27 01:14:00
  • Previous
  • Memorize
  • Share
  • Next

Moral Dillema of sorts

As some of you may know, I'm having some Lubavitch related issues right now. Before I considered these mostly remote from my community..but then I went to one of the rabbis' homes on Purim. I noticed that besides having "Beis Moshiach" magazines, which containe the line "Long Live Our Master, Our Teacher, and Our Rebbe, King Messiah Forever and Ever!" on the cover, he had a tambourine on his wall with the exact same phrase scrawled on it in Hebrew, although it also seemed to have the word "boreinu" written on there as well. If this wasn't enough, one of the visiting (Chabad) yeshiva students started singing "yechi".

I'm...shocked to say the least and completly unsure of whether or not I can trust anything this man says in regards to Halacha or Yiddishkeit. I feel compelled to leave this shul for the new Modern Orthodox one, but I also don't want to "bite the hand" that fed me, since these people did sort of set up my appointment with the Beit Din and vouched for me. Everyone else in the community just pretends it isn't an issue or that if they ignore it, then it'll go away.

So nu, any advice?

  • Post a new comment

    Error

    Anonymous comments are disabled in this journal

    switch

    Your reply will be screened

    Your IP address will be recorded 

     
    Help
  • 47 comments

[info]yadfothgildloc

March 27 2005, 06:45:40 UTC 7 years ago

As far as I am aware, there is no real reason, besides personal distaste, to distrust Meshichists' halakha and yiddishkeit-related matters. They are still counted in a minyan, etc. If you don't want to, msot people won't hold it against you, but there is no reason not to - they aren't changing halakha because of the Rebbe ztz"l.

[info]prezzey

March 27 2005, 14:40:10 UTC 7 years ago

"they aren't changing halakha because of the Rebbe ztz"l."

Aren't they?!

[info]yadfothgildloc

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]smokingredmoon

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]yadfothgildloc

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]yadfothgildloc

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]eyelid

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]mindset

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]eyelid

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]prezzey

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]yadfothgildloc

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]eyelid

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]kbreen

March 27 2005, 09:39:46 UTC 7 years ago

Agree with the above comment (from my point of view of limited knowledge!). I suggest stay open-minded if you do decide to stay with this shul for the time being, after all each Rabbi's answers to halakha-related matters are only his own interpretation, but I wouldn't see any reason why he should be seen as untrustworthy, if that's what you meant. Perhaps see how he answers your questions on different matters (if you have not already done this), and judge for yourself whether there seems to be any absence of logic in his reasoning, or whether his views on halakha seems to generally differ from yours.
P.S. Please feel free to comment if I have totally got the wrong end of the stick in my comments: I am learning about these matters (from my very left-wing perspective!) and would be interested in hearing any angles and perspectives:)

[info]angrymonotreme

March 27 2005, 14:28:13 UTC 7 years ago

I'm going to be totally blunt: I don't accept halachic rulings from mashichists. I only accept halachic rulings from Jews who believe that mashiach has NEVER come, and are still waiting for a first appearance! Anybody can be learned in Halacha. Even a non-jew can study all our great texts and come up with an answer to even the most basic question, but I believe that only a learned Jew who worships God and only God has the divine inspiration to properly answer halachic questions.

If we accept mashichist rabbis as proper rabbis then mashichism will continue to flourish, and will be the next christianity, and didn't THAT do wonders for Judaism! Personally, I don't think we should be letting our fellow Jews stray like this.

Boy do I ever sound hardcore! Yikes!

[info]prezzey

March 27 2005, 14:41:10 UTC 7 years ago

That's not hardcore, that's just normal Judaism, or we're both doomed LOL.

[info]onthepage

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]jkrissw

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]amawahibiki

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]kahunadoctor

March 27 2005, 14:38:07 UTC 7 years ago

If you see the words "Boreinu" leave. Chabad is an incredible organiation, but personally I want nothing to do with them. If the Rebbe is still being proclaimed Moshiach publicly amongst them then you should leave. I don't know who you are, or what your circumstances are but I can tell with complete confidence that it's complete "sheker" (lies) and is very disconcerting.
Hello...this is how Xianity got started. JC's first followers kept the Torah and then they conviently started changing things, which some people in the Halachic world is already happening in Chabad.

[info]jkrissw

March 27 2005, 16:09:47 UTC 7 years ago

My Hebrew's obviously lacking something. Please translate "boreinu". "Our (what)?"

[info]prezzey

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]jkrissw

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]abukhamr

6 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]kahunadoctor

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]eyelid

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]kahunadoctor

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]prezzey

March 27 2005, 14:39:27 UTC 7 years ago

Well, I think you should ask your rabbi about it, directly. Preferably both one-on-one and when there are other people around, too. I did that myself. Our shul is also Chabad and it's generally anti-M, but with lots of visiting students, the Meschichist thing pops up every now and then. (We also have a Meschichist graffiti, LOL.) It's better to make sure. And if you don't agree, you can also tell him that and part ways peacefully. If he knows you don't agree with him on this, and have left because of that, I think that's a lot better than if he thinks "he just left and we don't have a clue why". Less of the 'biting the hand that..' effect. At least I feel that way.

[info]eyelid

March 30 2005, 06:26:14 UTC 7 years ago

I think Mike's already spoken with the rabbi about it and got the "calm down, it's no big deal" treatment. He also got the vibe that the rabbi himself has moshiachist leanings.

[info]theservant

March 27 2005, 15:30:31 UTC 7 years ago

It used to be when you talked about messianic Jews, you meant something else. Nowadays...

[info]jkrissw

March 27 2005, 16:11:28 UTC 7 years ago

Actually, that's a good comeback if somebody tells you they're a "mashichist".

"Oh! You're a Messianic Jew! Ok."

[info]frieden

March 27 2005, 16:54:46 UTC 7 years ago

personelly i have many issues with chabad but you also have to remember they also do many good things you have to take the good and the bad. Aish is good and u could check it out. Try to remember the good things about it and just because they think those things does not mean u have to. Also if possiable move to an area where you have more options for shuls and were there are more religous jews around.

[info]estherchaya

March 28 2005, 17:25:56 UTC 7 years ago

personelly i have many issues with chabad but you also have to remember they also do many good things you have to take the good and the bad. Aish is good and u could check it out

One could say the same for Aish... having to take the good with the bad, I mean.

[info]sen_ichi_rei

March 27 2005, 19:50:39 UTC 7 years ago

personally my eating in someone's house is based on them keeping kosher and being shomer shabbas, so i would eat in a conservative person's house if they kept those 2 mitzvot, even if they think that davening egal is according to halacha, and i don't, because them davening egal doesn't affect their observance of kashrut.

i'd say if you're uncomfortable don't make it so they know you're not eating by them because of their belief in the rebbe, but if you could go to the modern orthodox shul where you're more comfortable, that's perfectly fine. maybe start by going to both, and go to chabad less and less, so they think you're doing it b/c you're attracted to the MO shul, not because you disagree with chabad's views on moshiach, however legitimate your disagreement is. That way, no one is hurt.

[info]galads_forest

March 27 2005, 19:58:33 UTC 7 years ago

This was going to be my advice. It's how I got out of going to the Conservative shul where I grew up and over to the Orthodox one. It caused some stirrings, but a lot less than it would have if I had just gotten up and left one day. Plus, though they got you started, you never claimed to be Chabad as far as I know... just someone who wanted to be a frum Jew. You're there. You got it. Be the frum Jew you want to be. Don't lose your relationship completely, but feel free to detach from it. If Chabad is not the path you're choosing, do it now while you're still fresh. Don't you have three years to pick up minhagim & a nusach anyway?

[info]eyelid

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]kbreen

March 27 2005, 20:34:24 UTC 7 years ago

a clarification re: my last comment

When I said "I agree with the above comment", I was referring to the first comment, made by yadfothgildloc, saying "there is no real reason... to distrust..."
BTW I was interested to read the comments made since, regarding the dangers of a movement who is waiting for "their messiah" to be re-born, since as some of you were saying, it could have far greater ramifications than mere verbal disputes as to difference of opinion. I will think about this further:).

I am puzzled by this use of boreinu, leaving aside for the moment the issue of whether or not he is the messiah, where does this come from, the idea that the messiah is G-d? Not that I believe in the coming of the messiah anyway, but I would be interested to know.

[info]onthepage

March 28 2005, 03:42:25 UTC 7 years ago

What is "yechi"?

[info]sholem

April 14 2005, 22:11:42 UTC 7 years ago

Long live (the King)

[info]kmelion

March 28 2005, 12:42:59 UTC 7 years ago

the father of a friend of mine won't eat Chabad sechitah, since many of them have a problem differentiating between something that is alive and something that is dead.

[info]moonstart

March 28 2005, 15:28:06 UTC 7 years ago

=)

funny in a kinda sad way... All my Jewish friends from when I was younger (summer camp) are Lubavitch and I was at a Lubavitch camp when the Rebbe died, so it really weirded me out, and I have since had a hard time relating to their ideas and community. Personally I consider it idolatry, but I wouldn't break off friendships with those people, just wouldn't join their shuls...

[info]marlowe1

March 28 2005, 15:44:30 UTC 7 years ago

You have to choose the place that's best for you and that helps you grow best.

But aren't you glad you didn't have this crisis BEFORE you converted?

[info]sethg_prime

March 28 2005, 18:01:08 UTC 7 years ago

Hakarat ha-tov--acknowledging good things that other people have done for you--is a very important concept in halakha, but staying with the rabbi who sponsored your conversion, even when you no longer find it easy to trust this rabbi, is taking that concept to an unnecessary extreme.

I was sponsored for my conversion by the rabbi of a certain synagogue in the Boston area. I now daven at a different synagogue in the Boston area. The rabbi in question is a great guy, very learned, impeccable Orthodoxy, etc., etc., but the community around that synagogue wasn't right for me.

This is aside from all the questions of meshichistism-and-worse that others have brought up here.

[info]eyelid

March 30 2005, 06:31:14 UTC 7 years ago

I think it'd be really difficult for me to be part of a Jewish community where I had such a fundamental disagreement... I mean I would consider this to be idolatry. To me it would be the same sort of thing as going to a Jews-for-Jesus church.

[info]cohenorama

March 30 2005, 10:11:32 UTC 7 years ago

Michale Boreinu claim

Michael you are mistaken.

No Lubavitcher in the US and israel (besides less then 10 crazies in israel who are not Chabad) ever said, proclaimed or believe that the Rebbe is as you wrote heaven forbid "boreinu"

you are confusing the word Rabeinu from the yechi tamborine which means Rebbe like Moshe Rabeinu for Boreinu which is creator and that is idolatry.

Now that you posted this mistake all the people who commented and believed your error and the hundreds who read it will never know the truth, now you need to think long and hard how you can fix this terrible accusation you made against a Chabad Rabbi and rewrite your post.

[info]mike72486

March 30 2005, 12:28:45 UTC 7 years ago

Re: Michale Boreinu claim

I saw what I saw and I know enough Hebrew to not be confused by the difference between a resh and a bet.

Even if the word "boreinu" was not on there, the idea that a dead man is Moshiach is one that is disturbing to an extreme and no one less than the Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Israel in Baltimore decreed such.

[info]sholem

7 years ago

  • Loading...

[info]balmofgilead

7 years ago

  • Loading...
Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Facebook Twitter More login options
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…